Official Luthiers Forum!

There is an interesting thread on the UMGF on [Shaving Down Back Braces], under the "Technical Info" section. It's gettting a bit negative and personal. If you have any experience with tuning backs please consider participating in the thread. I am trying to be open, honest and civil but the tables are turning ugly on me. Some days are just more trying than others I guess. TIA

Tim McKnight38718.9129166667

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

Here is a link to the thread that Tim mentioned above. It needed a few tweaks.

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Don Atwood
Arlington, VA

Tim, it appears that the person(s) that are calling plate tuning "crap" are referring to M and not any luthier in general, Id just let it be. Its quite clear that this person is not familiar with plate tuning at all, but hey - thats OK Leaves something for us to talk about!

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Lance@LuthiersForum.com

Tim...seems like your objective and fact-based opinions are more appreciated here rather than there.

I haven't hung out on that forum for some time. It seems like Bryan Kimsey was one of the more knowledgeable posters then as he is now. Sure would be nice to have him on the OLF. He is one of the great resources on hot-rodding completed guitars.

Does anyone know him...if so, perhaps an invitation would be in order.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com

Tim, i read the thread, it looks like we, here, have a pretty decent civilized place, or is it just an individual over there, not being able to respect an opinion difering from his ?

HI Tim

I joined the post on UMGF, looks like a case of blind brand loyalty to me !!!


For me your posts are great, factual and polite, just the way things should be.


RussellR38719.3480902778

Thanks for the support guys. It's just sad when some folks are too stubborn to consider other options. Oh, well. I will contact Bryan and extend an invitation to him.Tim McKnight38719.4053935185

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tim...
http://www.mcknightguitars.com

Hey Tim
You might reference Al C.'s experiment with clay on the back of the guitar affecting the tone. It is a repeatable and reversable experiment that takes back tuning out of the realm of opinion and speculation. Good post BTW.

Hey Tim, your prechin' to the choir here and over there it's obvious they are the M crowd. Good luck, some people just don't want a guitar the doesn't have the CFM on top.

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Tickle your guitar daily, and it'll tickle you back.

Does anyone know him...if so, perhaps an invitation would be in order.

Bryan's a dear friend, and the only official "Proulx" warranty person. All my US work goes to him. His work is excellent, and his integrity flawless.

it's obvious they are the M crowd

Guys, a place like the UMGF is a Martin place. D'uh! Martin guys and gals go there to talk their favorite topic: Martins. That should be pretty easy to understand. Nothing wrong with that at all, but it isn't the place for any of us to be posting, really. It's like your favorite church suddenly sees a preacher of another denomination walking in and trying to take over the pulpit to preach his/her ideals; ain't gonna happen. It's like a Formula One racing fan going to a Nascar forum, and trying to explain why standing starts and local yellows make more sense. Wrong crowd, and he'll get chewed up.

It's a great place to hang out and study, but you should refrain from posting, unless you have advice to steer someone clear of a mistake, like if someone asks if Krylon is okay to spray on the headstock to make it glossy or something <bg> Otherwise, sit, read, learn, but stay low.

Besides, you come across pretty strong with the 'knowledgable' statement. It can be seen as you saying their builder of choice(it IS their forum) isn't knowledgable.

Do you really believe you can change a back's response by as much as a few semitones by shaving the braces? Define semitone....Mario38719.4452546296

[QUOTE=Mario] It's like a Formula One racing fan going to a Nascar forum, and trying to explain why standing starts and local yellows make more sense. [/QUOTE]

Of course they do, I thought that was obvious!

Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Mario
I don't think Tim was straying too far afield when he responded to that topic. It was a request to discuss back brace shaving and that is what Tim discussed. No need to lay low in that forum when the topic strays away from the strict factory Martin specs and ventures into a general lutherie question as this query did.

True enough, but I also don't think they were being so harsh that Tim needed to come start a thread over here to round up the recruits <bg>

But again, it -is- a Martin forum, so another builder jumping-in and making a statement like that can easily be seen as "those of us who know better than the folks at Martin do tune our backs". A repairman is viewed quite differently.

You can give advice, answer questions, but do not try to place yourself above their guitar of choice. Same as you wouldn't go over to the Taylor forums and start talking of the benefits of a dovetailed neck. The examples are too numurous to list. Know where you are before you speak, and speak accordingly, and if you step in it, be prepared to get some on your shoes, and don't ask another to scrape the shoe for you <g>.Mario38719.5026157407

I read the the thread at that "other" site and most of the comments seemed single/close minded. If someone could explain to me that an avacado skin would make a great back for a guitar and it worked...I'd be making avacado skin backed guitars. One of the things that makes OLF a great place is the sharing of ideas and techniques without being overshadowed by the "pride" and "proudness" of the almighty keeper of some imaginary grail. My way or highway!? Sounds to me like some of those people still have a lot to learn. Others will never learn and that's actually good for those of us who continue to learn (I think it's an edge...in life!). I guess that people who do believe in tuning backs, like Ervin Somogyi, must be all wrong...I happen to agree with Ervin and his like. I spent $5k to learn about tuning backs. I would suggest anyone who doesn't believe that it makes a difference take Ervin's course...you just might learn something!

Mario, as far as laying low goes...I am not one to do so...further, why would I want to hang anywhere where you need to lay low and are attacked when askng/answering a question?
I've never seen you lay low! Dave-SKG38719.5035648148

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

Dave, correct, I don't lay low, but I also don't hang out at the brand-specific forums. My advice is that if you go there, lay low. It's their church, respect it, and know that if you speak out of line, you will need to answer for it.

Basic internet, and world, savy, folks. You can walk into another's church and sit politely and listen to the sermon, but don't get up and start arguing your views, even if asked to. It's a no-win situation.

MArio,
All due respect...it's not a "church". It may be gender specific...Martin...but how does that mean one should not ask questions or express opinions? I think you missed my point. Are we going to put the blacks in the back of the bus and tell them "look it's OUR bus"? What if my question or answer actually would help someone else reading the thread...don't offer it because I am supposed to sit "low"? Come on! You can't realy mean that! I understand that it's a place where you have people who believe Martin is the end all, and answerer of all, (too bad) but your advice to keep quite is absurd!

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Dave Bland

remember...

"If it doesn't play in tune...it's just pretty wood"

My advice to stay low is sound. Stay low in their church, if you so enter it.

It is a church. It is a place where everyone is there to praise and talk of a common subject. It may not have tax-free status, but by definition, it is a church.

You can go and speak at another's church, but expect to be asked to the carpet and explain your views, and don't come asking for help. Tim went to the church of the holy martin, go himself in trouble, and came back asking for others to step in and validate what he said, so he won't look stupid.

We're all big boys, if we start a fight, and others jump in to help, that's fine, but to ask for reinforcements isn't.

[QUOTE=Mario] Dave, correct, I don't lay low, but I also don't hang out at the brand-specific forums. My advice is that if you go there, lay low. It's their church, respect it, and know that if you speak out of line, you will need to answer for it.

Basic internet, and world, savy, folks. You can walk into another's church and sit politely and listen to the sermon, but don't get up and start arguing your views, even if asked to. It's a no-win situation. [/QUOTE]

I often think the same thing about some of the stuff at the 13th fret (which is a great forum...) -- but I keep my mouth shut and let them have their fun.

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Brock Poling
Columbus, Ohio
http://www.polingguitars.com

Oh fiddle
   Tim responded to a back brace shaving question. He did not blaspheme the name of Martin. He did not start the thread. He never said anything pro or con about Martin guitars, just gave his opinion about the question at hand. I have no problem with him coming here to vent his irritation. Better here than there.
   Now will someone please take up a collection? Oh, yeah, we've don that already.

Okay, looked up "semitone' in the on-line dictionaries, and it is what I thought it was. A half step. I self-doubted myself there for a while, in case Tim was speaking of soemthing else, but there isn't a second definition of it.

I've done a lot of brace shaving, and never could I say with honesty that I could shave a back's braces to achieve a change a 'a few semitones', unless one were to pretty well remove a brace or two.

Al? Any added insight?

Tim, I'm not chasing you down or anything, but be careful what you say, and where. If you can backup this claim, I'd have to see it. I agree that the back's braces do have an impact on tone and power, but "a few semitones"?

Agree with Mario on that it is a Martin site and they compare and ask about Martin ways and that is what they want to hear about. I do think most builders though voice the back in some manner and Tim was giving thought about voicing back in general and not dissing Martin way of doing it. One of best if not best guy I personally know John Slobod makes his back brace from ones I seen the short, rounded wide back braces particularly 3 &4, he does voice the though to some extent. Check out www.circaguitars.com Great guy and builder. I know also had great things to say about Mario from the kaufman(sp) camp this past summer

An interesting thread. I think Mario has a point: they are there because, for them, Martin is the Holy Grail, at least sometimes, so if Martin doesn't do it, it's not right. They are certainly entitled to their opinions.

As for 'tuning'; everybody ends up with tops and backs that are 'tuned' to some notes, whether they do it deliberately or not. Martin ends up with the tops and backs in all sorts of different relationships, and some of them work better than others. If many of the good ones are 'tuned' a certain way, why not try to duplicate that relationship deliberately?

A few weeks ago, I was castigated on the Acoustic Player Magazine forum
for making the mistake of saying that the blotchy irregular stain on the
spruce top of a guitar built by Kim Walker, which someone posted photos
of (not his own guitar, or I would have kept my mouth shut), looked like
'crap.' So this is a timely discussion, and I'm feeling better already,
although I'm not sure why.   I actually first
said that I had seen and handled one of Kim's guitars and it was superb,
and I thought the craftmanship was a good cut above my own, which I
don't often think, and I clearly said that the rubbed stain on spruce
looking like crap was my personal opinion.

Didn't matter. I was widely denounced for what people took to be calling
all of Kim's work crap, all of his finish work crap, etc. No matter how
many times I pointed out how I had praised him and specified that I didn't
like just the narrow matter of rubbed dye on spruce and specified it was
my personal opinion, I had offended the faithful, and they were outraged
that anyone could dislike any part of one of their heroes' work. I even
tried to plead as an excuse for blunt language my background growing
up in New York, but that didn't help.   My character was held to be
poor. One member even lifted a sunburst photo from my website and
posted it and said it looked like a cheap two-color spray painted guitar
from a 1950's catalog. I was then told by the moderator that the word
'crap' was impermissible, even if specified it as a personal opinion about
some narrow visual aspect of a guitar. I pretty much can't go back there
again after my transgression.

Well, I'm a big boy, and while I hate being denounced in personal terms
by a bunch of people, I'll get over it. But the relevance for this thread
here is that Mario is absolutely right. Guitar forums are like cults, and if
they are engaged in a worship service and you come in and question
anything about their cult leader/object of worship, they will see you as
the devil himself. On places like APM and 13th Fret, certain builders are
worshipped. There was just another thread on APM in which it was said
that to be a better guitar maker you must be a better person. All the
regulars agreed that their guitar making heroes are not just fine
craftsmen, but saintly human beings, and that spiritual excellence is
needed for guitar making excellence. Seriously. So when you question
Martin guitars on the Martin hero-worship forum, it's like you went to
Waco back in the day and questioned David Koresh's wisdom. Yes, it is a
church, and the churchgoers have religious fervor. If that same guy who
said tuning is crap had gone to one of these other forums and said that
back tuning as practiced by [insert name of famous luthier] is crap, he
would have wandered into the wrong church and soon found out about it.

That being said, due to these recent events, I have to feel some kinship
for anyone using the word 'crap,' and I don't think it was directed at you
personally, Tim. It was directed at an opinion about back tuning, and
opinions are fair game, even for strong language (in my opinion). A lot of
people miss the distinction, but there's nothing wrong with calling a
technique or an idea crap. It's calling a person or a person's personal
qualities crap that goes over the line.

BTW, I recently heard a guitar with an overbraced back open up very
noticeably in the bottom end as the braces were shaved. Howard Klepper38719.6645486111

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

About tuning backs. I'm skeptical that the weight of blu-tac that you had on
the back when you liked the tap pitch is equal to the weight of spruce you
take off the bracing to get that pitch. I can't see why it would be.

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Howard Klepper
http://www.klepperguitars.com

When all else fails, clean the shop.

My first forum experience years ago was on the UMGF. As a Martin owner, the forum provided me with a great deal of insight into the mystique and following that the brand commands. I still think it's a great forum for Martin owners and others who wish to learn more about Martins. Most of the sections are much like a church in the sense that they are dogmatic in their beliefs than there is nothing that sounds better than a Martin. The debate against Taylor and other factory guitars is like a Chevy owner discussing his brand with a Ford owner.

The "Technical Section", however, was always a place where ideas about improving the performance and sound were freely exchanged. It was there where Bryan Kimsey added a great deal to the body of knowledge as to making improvements by simple changes to nut, saddle and bridge pin materials. I and others made these changes and it was common knowledge that one could enhance their guitars beyond the performance coming out of the factory. He also posted information about evaluating the action and how to best set up the guitar...(Martin is notorious for setting up high actions coming out of the factory). Bryan also championed his hot-rodding of Martin guitars by removing the popsicle brace and doing proper setups for exixting Martins in his shop. This was always accepted with an open mind and in the spirit of getting the best sound from a Martin.

That said, I can state that 99% of posters would welcome such comments as Tim made...even with him posting as a non-member of the "church". As in all forums, there are those few in the vast minority who seem to scream the loudest...and I believe that's what happened here. Why someone would get so bent out of shape over your opinion on tuning the back plate is not typical from what I have experienced there.

Tim, I'd just chalk it up to the rantings of an insecure church member who reacted like a Taliban extremist when his view of the world was questioned. Remember how Galileo was treated when he dared to show proof that the earth was not the center of the universe?...same mentality.

Hang in there, dude. You did nothing wrong in my opinion.

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JJ
Napa, CA
http://www.DonohueGuitars.com